Via King of Zembla, here's a bit from Jane Smiley's entry in a series of essays at Slate.com called "Why Americans Hate Democrats—A Dialogue":

Here is how ignorance works: First, they put the fear of God into you—if you don't believe in the literal word of the Bible, you will burn in hell. Of course, the literal word of the Bible is tremendously contradictory, and so you must abdicate all critical thinking, and accept a simple but logical system of belief that is dangerous to question. A corollary to this point is that they make sure you understand that Satan resides in the toils and snares of complex thought and so it is best not try it.  [full essay]

I've been dwelling a lot lately on the issues of thought, ignorance, and religious belief, as have many other folks here. I've seen the thought expressed many times recently by liberals and free-thinkers that they just can't understand how someone can look at what Bush & Co. are doing and not see the idiocy, criminality, and perilousness of it. I think we need to start understanding the reason for it very thoroughly, which is why Jane Smiley's essay has finally prodded me into posting an exchange I had a couple of weeks ago with an evangelical-style Christian. I do this not to make myself look clever, which I certainly won't; not to mock my correspondent, who after all seems sincere in his belief; not to settle any argument in anyone's mind, because neither one of us is likely to change any minds here. I do it just to illustrate the dead end that is this whole debate as it currently stands.

The genesis for the exchange is my Says God site, which attempts to make billboard-worthy slogans out of iconoclastic sentiments that place common sense above received Biblical wisdom. In the interest of portraying the exchange fairly, I have not removed any of my early replies (written in the persona of "I Am, the Almighty and Merciful"), despite the fact that they frankly bait the young fellow on the other end and don't show me in a very flattering light. In fact, I'm not sure much of the exchange shows me in a very flattering light, but what I want to get at here is the stultifying insistence among this "new" Republican constituency that the irrational and counter-factual are not just rational and factual, but in fact self-evident and the only possible rational responses. War is peace. Hate is love. Shallowness is depth. Satan is God. My rights trump your rights.

My correspondent's emails are in Times Roman, my responses in Courier.

The quotes that you have as God saying them are ridiculous. Do you think they are actually funny? God would never cuss or believe in scinece over the bible. You have really got a nerve to steer people in the wrong direction, and those quotes are not appreciated! May God truly bless you IN HIS NAME!

Dearest C——————:

Get your dumb ass an education and read a book. Something other than the Bible. Who the fuck do think *invented* science? Dumb fuck.

With infinite mercy,
I Am

I Am? Who do u think u r? I pray that people like you, who think they know it all would wake up a realize that God is God and u r NOT! God loves you so much and He would do anything for you. You really hurt HIm when you do stuff like this... and you can not sit here and tell me that you dont' somewhat believe or respect this God. Because if you didnt' then you would not make it a hobby to mock Him. In Christ, C———

u know what this will bring dnt' u? HELL

If this God character really exists, he's a bipolar homicidal torturer. Sending people to hell because they accept the evidence of the world he created, all of which indicates no God? What a lying, cruel sack of shit that God would be. He doesn't exist, and you have a lot to learn about the world.

With infinite mercy,
I Am

God does not send ppl to Hell he just has the power to do so... and it is our decision.. i mean how can we not serve a GOD that sent his son to die for us so that we could live? He is always there for us! U dont' know that b.c u refuse to belive it, you will not allow ur self to be blessed so therefore u r Not! and u have to believe in something to deny it exists. God is out there man and one day u will find that out. but i hope it is b4 judgement day.. and how does this world indicate there was no GOd? where is the evidence...exacly! God is the beginning and the End the first and the last the author and the finisher of our faith,, were is ur faith at.,,i know it is there somewher u just have to pull it out of that black hole... u can do it! God bless

At 05:50 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote: >u have to believe in something to deny it exists.

That's the dumbest, least logical statement I've ever heard. Do I have to believe in the Easter Bunny to deny the Easter Bunny exists? Learn how to think critically, kid. It's an important skill in this world.

With infinite mercy,
I Am

learn to think critically? u have got to be kidding me! u tell me this when u need to listen to ur own advice. i see that u tend to pick out the bad things i say but never comment on the good things. u know that there is a God and u know that u deny HIm. dont' be mad at God whatever u went thro it is not HIs fault. u have to learn to think positive. Be still and know that God is God. i know that it is deep inside of u, or else u would not make a big deal out of contridicting HIm. He loves u man! God bless!

I'm not mad at God. How can I be mad at someone who doesn't exist? Despite what you say, I do not know that there is a God. When I put words in God's mouth, what I'm doing is trying to point out the absurdity of the things religious leaders want people to believe, and how those things contradict the common sense that a being as intelligent and evolved as a God would surely have.

How absurd for you to keep asserting that you know what's in my heart! It's presumptuous of you and does not bespeak a sincere desire to exchange ideas. You want me to listen to what you're saying, but you won't listen to what I'm saying. You want me to open my heart to an imaginary creature when your belief in that imaginary creature only causes you to close your ears to what I tell you I believe? Sorry, but no thanks. If you're an example of what belief in God does to people, I want no part of it.

With infinite mercy,
I Am

if he does not exist then why do u take the time to mock him? is it really that important? why make a concious effort to bring down His name? He DOES exist and whether u believe that or not, you have no right to put my God down! you say you do not know that there is a GOd, well i am here to tell u that there IS a God, and he loves u man! and how does all of this contridict the common sense? you are making no sense! well if i am being upsurd b.c i think ur mad at God or whatever, then say what u want...but I know that GOd exists and i am only trying to help YOU! u need God whether you say u do or dont'! the reason i am closing my ears to waht u say is because i KNOW u r wrong! even if u dont'. i am not here to criticize u..only to help u, and i will not allow my heart or head be filled with teh nonsense that u have to say b,c i know that there is a God and i vow to serve him with all my heart! Peace!

At 02:31 PM 10/22/2004, you wrote: >if he does not exist then why do u take the time to mock him? >is it really that important? why make a concious effort to >bring down His name?

I explained exactly this point in my last message: "When I put in God's mouth, what I'm doing is trying to point out the absurdity of the things religious leaders want people to believe, and how those things contradict the common sense that a being as intelligent and evolved as a God would surely have." Was that not clear?

>He DOES exist and whether u believe that or not, you have no
>right to put my God down!

Of course I have that right. It's the same principle that gives you the right to speak your opinions of God. If you want me to shut up about God, are *you* willing to shut up about God?

With infinite mercy,
I Am

ok then where is ur evidence taht GOD does not exists? so maybe u have the right, but u r morally wrong to do this! satan has truly gotten to u! and i will pray for u! i will never be quiet about GOD! and if God does not exist why make an effort to mock him? if he is not here, then why are u so invovled in having ppl know it, it should not make any difference to u. me on the other hand i know that God is alive, and i will never shut up about IT! In Christ

At 02:43 PM 10/22/2004, you wrote: >ok then where is ur evidence taht GOD does not exists?

I've never seen God. Have you? Failing that, I've never seen any evidence of God's existence that couldn't be explained in some naturalistic way. My default assumption, until I see God, is that he doesn't exist.

>so maybe u have the right, but u r morally wrong to do this!
>satan has truly gotten to u!

Why is it morally wrong for me to talk about a sincerely held belief? Is it also morally wrong for me to say that I believe humans evolved from lower forms of life, or that I believe the earth is 5 billion years old? Explain this morality of yours that says it's wrong to talk about honest beliefs?

>and if God does not exist why make an effort to mock him?
>if he is not here, then why are u so invovled in having ppl
>know it, it should not make any difference to u.

I don't care whether or not you or anyone else believes in God. That's your right and your decision to make. It's fine. What I object to, and what my site is about, is what happens when believers of one religious faith or another attempt to impose their morality on other citizens through legislation. I object to what happens when believers of God attempt to prevent distribution of condoms in third world countries, thus furthering epidemics like AIDS. I object to what happens when believers in God multiply without regard for the world's finite food and energy resources. I object to the slipshod, careless thinking that most religions promote. Most of all, I object to public policy that comes as a result of belief in a Giant in the Sky rather than in intelligent, clear-eyed analysis of objective reality.

So believe in God. That's fine. Tell me about your beliefs. That's fine too. Just don't force your morality on me.

>me on the other hand i know that God is alive, and i will
>never shut up about IT!

What is your proof?

With infinite mercy,
I Am

with God u have to have faith, it is beleiving without seeing. i don't see air but i know it is there, i dont' see a headache but i know it is ther when i have one, an u can feel a headache just like u can feel God. u have to be willing to allow him. ok if u dont' even believe he exists then u at least have to be willing to try him? right? just say God i dnt' know if u r there or not, but i want to find out. i want to know if there is a god out there. and i acn guarentee u that he will show u somehting. but.. u have to be open wiht him and willing and want to see someting. i see God work in ppls' lives all the time. and u can not tell me it is by accident that ppl get healed and blessed with money when they need it ,, no it is GOd!

Air -- the mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, and other gases that makes up the atmosphere -- can be detected with the senses, and it can be confirmed experimentally to exist. A headache can be traced to a definite cause -- increased blood or fluid pressure in the head, or something similar. Your analogies don't quite make the grade.

I'm not interested in hypnotizing myself, C——————. And what about all the people who *didn't* get healed, or who *didn't* get money, or who stepped on landmines or jumped off the tops of burning skyscrapers? Why did these things happen to them? Because they were bad? Because they were evil?

With infinite mercy,
I Am

there are some things that i can not answer i am not God. what happens in others ppls lifes i do not know. but i do not that if u open the door for evil, evil will come in, and God being the gentlemen he is will sit back if u do not call upon Him, he does not want to force himself on anyone. right now i can tell u i have a headache but how would u know, b.c u can not feel it, but i may have one so it does exists, so even though u say God does not exist i know he does just he way i know if i had a headache or not! i guess it is up to u whether u go to hell or heaven but as for me i will spend my eternity in heaven with my maker on streets of gold, as opposed to the firey pits of hell, with satan whom u r serving if u r not serving God, and for ur 411, satan hates u and u r doing exacly what he wants u to do, going agianst God, but ur wrong my brother! and i will continue to pray for u! God will get u whether it be now or on judgement day!Note: Here I slipped out of the baiting "I Am" persona and started writing as myself.

At 04:42 PM 10/22/2004, you wrote: >there are some things that i can not answer i am not God.

Can you answer the question of what you get when you add two and two? Can you tell me what those tiny pinpricks of light in the night sky are called? Can you tell me what chemical element it is that you breathe in and take into your bloodstream when you respire? Do you know the answers to these questions?

-b

yes i can and what is the point to these questions? it is not the matter of physical things and things u can see, it has to do with ur spirit, it is total seperation of ur body man and sipiritual man. u just have to beleive.

My point is that all those answers have come through repeated and verifiable experimentation -- in other words, science. Do you think the development and application of science has made the world a better place? Are you happy or unhappy to live in an age of science and technology? Would we be better off without scientific advancement? Would you prefer not to have the computer technology we're now using to communicate?

-b

what i think is that we are so caught up in what we have today,technology; cars; weatlth; ect, that we fail to realize how we got her and how blessed we are! i am not saying that technology is bad, but i do belive the bible over science!

If God created the world, then didn't God create science as well? Didn't he set up all the physical constraints and principles on which the world operates?

-b

god created men and men brought it upon themeselves to create science. it is not like he is gonna come out and say "no" he wants to see if we will accept what HE has made for us! men created principles of today. God wants us to use them for good not for evil to to say he does not exist!

Did man create the interaction of hydrogen and oxygen atoms that gives birth to water? Did man dictate that light travels at 186,282 miles per second? Did man set up the rate of decay of radioactive materials in carbon-14 that permits the precise dating of ancient objects?

-b

ok so u were saying those things to be sarcastic! of course men did not create them, and if men did not create them, then who did!? ... GOD! men discovered that these things happen this way! i am not talking about light and radioactive things i am talking about evolution! we did not get here thro evolution, so how did we get here? what else besides my God could create something so beautiful and complicated!

Okay, yes, men *discovered* that things work this way, but if God really exists then he *made* them work that way. So when men study science, your belief should tell you that they're studying the way God did things. So scientists are studying the ways of God.

Why, then, would you take issue with the fact that I try to point this out on my web page?

-b

NO on ur website u project that God beleives in science over the bible or what he says. science is good and all but God created it, how can u say he don't exist when such compliacted things as these exist?

Believing that only some old white man named God could possibly have created the universe shows a singular lack of imagination. I can conceive of half a dozen different explanations for how the universe came to be. Science tells me there was a Big Bang. Perhaps there was some outside agency that set that in motion, but I can't see any logical requirement that would demand that was God. It could have been alien beings, or some creator that has no particular interest in humankind. It could have been a magical turtle with a pink shell for all I know. I see no reason to believe that, if there is a creator, that creator is necessarily good, or cares about us, or even knows we exist. We may never know that answer to that question, but the simplest explanation is that it happened by itself.

Now, as for evolution, I wasn't trying to suggest anything about evolution by my questions. But because you brought it up, why is it such a preposterous idea? Why would God put evidence of evolution on the earth if evolution is not a true principle, same as he put evidence here of other scientific principles? Is it not possible that God *used* evolution to create humankind?

-b

No it is not possible that God used evolution to create us, he used Adam and Eve, the first humans to rome the earth. Why would God put ideas of evolution? ... why does God allow us to sin, why do accidents happen? God puts stubling blocks in our way to see if we will rely on Him for the answer because if we do we will always come out on top! We have to be in constant fellowship with God in order for His hedge of protection to be around us! And, God was not a man, God was a ... well God.. he can do miraculous things without us knowing how. I bet ( figurativley speaking) that if you would truly allow God to work in your life, he would work miracles for you! No one is perfect so yes you and I both have sin and problems in our life, but I can guarentee that if you would just try to believe in God and try to let Him work in your life, you would be amazed! And if you can say that the Big Bang Theory or a pink shelled turtle could have created the universe and all within it wh y is it so proposterous that God could have created it! If He is God, He can do all things! In Chirst!

At 08:07 AM 10/25/2004, you wrote: >No it is not possible that God used evolution to create us, >he used Adam and Eve, the first humans to rome the earth. >Why would God put ideas of evolution?

With God, I've been told, all things are possible -- so why not that? But that's neither here nor there. You've convinced me of at least one thing: that attempting to argue logically with someone so resolutely determined to cling to an illogical notion is pointless. Thanks for the interesting and instructive conversation.

Adieu,
-b

u r right with God all things are possible, stuff that can actually happen and are relevant! u know what u can hide behind ur big words and in depth arguments but u have to face the facts that God does exist!

Why do I have to face a so-called "fact" that you can barely articulate, let alone prove? I may as well go back to believing Peter Pan when he says he does believe in fairies.

You know, I was ready to drop this conversation, but there's something I'm genuinely curious about now. Do you believe that dinosaurs existed?

-b

that is a very good question, and to be honest that is one thing that i do not know but i can get back to u about that asap, i have to do a lil study first! and if u were a chrisitan u would never doubt God, b/c u just know he is there! but i will get back to u on that question! peace That last was October 25, and I've heard nothing back yet. That doesn't mean I won the argument by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think, except in rare instances, that this argument is winnable.